In this first episode of our new season, we gain the perspective of someone who has had her finger on the pulse of school business and resource equity for a long time, both from a local and a statewide perspective – Nina Boyd.
Nina is a school business official, administrator and statewide leader who has seen a lot transpire during her nearly 40 years in public education – and she is still on the frontlines impacting change.
Nina shares insight and perspectives related to:
Key questions addressed include:
About our guest
Nina Boyd currently serves as Deputy Superintendent for Operations, Government and Community Partnerships, for the Orange County Department of Education (OCDE), which supports supports 28 Public School Districts and 23 board-approved Public Charter Schools. Orange County public schools serve nearly 200,000 students; about 80 percent of whom are students of color.
Nina began her career in education as a temporary account clerk in Santa Ana Unified School District. She had planned to become a school psychologist but instead went on to a distinguished career serving in multiple administrative leadership roles at the OCDE, including as Administrator, Purchasing Contracts & Operations; Executive Director of Facilities and Operations; Assistant Superintendent Human Resources and Support Services; and Associate Superintendent Alternative Education.
At the statewide level, Nina has been a key advocate and leader, including serving for many years on the CASBO Board of Directors and as CASBO President in 2017-18. She also served an eight-year term on the Coalition for Adequate School Housing (CASH) state board and held a variety of positions to support facility and maintenance issues primarily in the areas of regulatory, advocacy, and legislation. Nina has facilitated and provided trainings and workshops at both the local and state level, including a focus on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion when she was a leader at CASBO. She also teaches in CASBO’s Business Executive Leadership program.
About our host
Jason Willis serves as Director of Strategic Resource Planning and Implementation for WestEd, and he is a former chief business official in several California school districts
About our series
Budgeting for Educational Equity is presented by the California Association of School Business Official (CASBO) and WestEd. We are grateful to the Sobrato Family Foundation for additional support. Our series is written and produced by Paul Richman and Jason Willis. Original music, mixing and sound by Tommy Dunbar. Alyssa Perez at WestEd provides research and develops the written briefs that go along with each episode.
In this first episode of our new season, we gain the perspective of someone who has had her finger on the pulse of school business and resource equity for a long time, both from a local and a statewide perspective – Nina Boyd.
Nina is a school business official, administrator and statewide leader who has seen a lot transpire during her nearly 40 years in public education – and she is still on the frontlines impacting change.
Nina shares insight and perspectives related to:
Key questions addressed include:
About our guest
Nina Boyd currently serves as Deputy Superintendent for Operations, Government and Community Partnerships, for the Orange County Department of Education (OCDE), which supports supports 28 Public School Districts and 23 board-approved Public Charter Schools. Orange County public schools serve nearly 200,000 students; about 80 percent of whom are students of color.
Nina began her career in education as a temporary account clerk in Santa Ana Unified School District. She had planned to become a school psychologist but instead went on to a distinguished career serving in multiple administrative leadership roles at the OCDE, including as Administrator, Purchasing Contracts & Operations; Executive Director of Facilities and Operations; Assistant Superintendent Human Resources and Support Services; and Associate Superintendent Alternative Education.
At the statewide level, Nina has been a key advocate and leader, including serving for many years on the CASBO Board of Directors and as CASBO President in 2017-18. She also served an eight-year term on the Coalition for Adequate School Housing (CASH) state board and held a variety of positions to support facility and maintenance issues primarily in the areas of regulatory, advocacy, and legislation. Nina has facilitated and provided trainings and workshops at both the local and state level, including a focus on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion when she was a leader at CASBO. She also teaches in CASBO’s Business Executive Leadership program.
About our host
Jason Willis serves as Director of Strategic Resource Planning and Implementation for WestEd, and he is a former chief business official in several California school districts
About our series
Budgeting for Educational Equity is presented by the California Association of School Business Official (CASBO) and WestEd. We are grateful to the Sobrato Family Foundation for additional support. Our series is written and produced by Paul Richman and Jason Willis. Original music, mixing and sound by Tommy Dunbar. Alyssa Perez at WestEd provides research and develops the written briefs that go along with each episode.
Budgeting For Educational Equity/Season 2, Episode 1:
Scoping Out the Current Educational Equity Landscape with Nina Boyd
Quotable:
"History is what it is -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. We should be proud of the things that we've done in this country and the achievements -- and it's been diverse populations of individuals who have made this country what it is...And so why aren't we applauding that and dialoguing about it? And yes, there are some shameful periods of history that none of us would wish to repeat or would want -- but let's learn from those and give our children an opportunity to understand what was, so that it's not repeated."
---Nina Boyd
Theme music begins.
Jason Willis, host:
Hey, it’s Jason here. For this episode of Budgeting for Educational Equity, we wanted to gain the perspective of someone who has had a finger on the pulse of school business and resource equity for a long time from both a local perspective and a statewide one – and that led me to none other than Nina Boyd. Nina is a school business official, administrator and statewide leader who has seen a lot transpire during her nearly 40 years in public education – and she is still on the frontlines impacting change.
As Nina says, she didn’t know much at all about school business when she first answered a newspaper Help Wanted ad right out of college. She had plans to go back to school to become a child psychologist -- but what she thought would be a temporary job in Santa Ana Unified as an account clerk led to an incredible career serving in various central office positions at the Orange County Department of Education; where she currently serves as Deputy Superintendent for Operations, Government and Community Partnerships. The OCDE supports 28 Public School Districts and 43 board-approved Public Charter Schools. Orange County public schools serve nearly 200,000 students; about 80 percent of whom are students of color.
Nina Boyd, guest:
You know, it's funny because I've never had a CBO [Chief Business Official] position, you know, but I have had all of the areas of the chief business official reporting to me with the exception of payroll – and now through administrative service I do have payroll as part of one of the reports. But, it's, I've just had a really interesting career in terms of opportunities and things that I've done.
Jason:
At the statewide level, Nina has been a key advocate and strategist, including serving for many years on the CASBO Board of Directors and as CASBO President in 2017-18. She also served an eight-year term on the Coalition for Adequate School Housing (CASH) state board and held a variety of positions to support facility and maintenance issues primarily in the areas of regulatory, advocacy, and legislation. Nina has facilitated and provided trainings and workshops at both the local and state level, including a focus on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion when she was a leader at CASBO. And for the past few years, I’ve had the chance to teach alongside her in CASBO’s Business Executive Leadership program.
And, Nina, I am curious to get your sense of where we are today in public education. Are you feeling optimism, concern, some other feeling about where we are going in California?
Nina:
Uh, it's interesting you asked that question because over the last couple of years, I've given that a lot of thought. You know, I feel like we have gone forward to go backward in some instances.
Jason:
Mm-hmm.
Nina:
I think that there has been progress. I think that education, in terms of talking about what's necessary, looking at what we're doing for students, definitely is foremost on most individuals in our field’s minds. And I think schools and districts are really trying to do a good job. But there is a pressure coming that is external to the education community, just in terms of the society that we live in right now. And I see a lot of pushback and a lot of questions. I think parents and families don't necessarily always know who to trust -- there's been some division in our country, which has naturally rolled into all areas, which includes our educational space.
Jason:
And Nina, when you say you feel like “we have gone forward to go backward” – tell me more about that?
Nina:
What I was saying – I think what I see happening, just globally, is that I thought there was great progression prior to Covid -- that we had progression moving in a positive manner. And then, and I'm not saying it was a result of Covid, I'm just saying that probably, you know, 2016 to 2020, I, I just saw that there just seemed to be a lot more conversation around equity, a lot more passion around ensuring that we were getting resources and identifying opportunities. And then, as our country changed in, you know, for a lot of different reasons, I think mostly political, that we started going backwards. And so, you know, we need to go forward again. But I think we've lost some of the progress that we were making.
Jason Willis:
Yeah. And I mean, generally this, I think it's a great point you’re making there, Nina. And, you know, I think this encompasses the larger movement of trying to achieve better equitable outcomes on a whole variety of like social, educational, economic measures for a whole a lot of folks in our country, but specifically those persons of color and those that are in more vulnerable positions than others. And I'm curious to dig in a little bit more there about these larger societal trends and pressures and how, as a leading education administrator in a county office in California, how you hold that? Do you feel like there are things as an institution that you can do to help put in context or offer some pathway for parents and other community members to productively engage in the education system?
Nina:
Definitely. I believe that we have to continue to be authentic in this space, that we have to use our voices to correct misinformation, that we can't give a pass with regards to things that are said and think that there's not an audience that, you know, might hear that and not really understand what is happening or what is truly occurring in schools. I think, you know, this assault on instructional materials and library books and what's used in classrooms, you know, the questioning of people's personal ethics and integrity in terms of how they show up -- I think we have to use our voices to correct the wrongs and to ensure to that our educational communities that we're showing transparency, that we're not afraid of the questions, that we can be honest and open -- but at the same time remind individuals that, their most precious resource, their children are coming into our spaces, and we want to make sure that those are safe spaces for them, and safe spaces in terms of ensuring that they can open their minds to be educated, um, in all forms [of] the curriculum in terms of instructional materials, but also to help build their self-esteem and their confidence, so that they’re inquisitive and they want to learn, that they want to understand, and that they have sensitivities about other people that might not look like them, others that have disabilities, and that there is the freedom to be able to express [that] without feeling that you're going to be harmed or that you're going to be singled out, and [that] it now creates a negative space.
Jason:
Yeah, I really appreciate that. And I wanted to follow up and ask, have you seen like specific pushback against this equity work that you think is, you know, a telltale or a canary in the coal mine that we need to be both aware of, but also thinking about how to respond to productively?
Nina:
Yes. I would use examples from some of the board meetings, you know, where you have individuals coming in and challenging systems that they don't understand. And I'd say part of it is we have not always identified with clarity some of those spaces. And I would say for example, I know that there's questions with regards to, and I'll go back to curriculum, let's just say ethnic studies. People are afraid of the unknown. And so from the standpoint of districts really having open conversations about what ethnic studies is and what it isn't, and being able to share with the public and the community and the networks what they're hoping to gain and share with students, as opposed to, you know, the fear mongers that are coming, and many who don't even live in districts, that they're coming and going before board meetings. And this concern that it's an us versus them, or that we're trying to give an advantage to a certain group of individuals versus others -- you know, history is what it is. And so from that standpoint, the good, the bad, and the ugly, you know, we should be proud of the things that we've done in this country and the achievements, and it's been diverse populations of individuals who have made this country what it is. And the strength of our country is in its people. And so why aren't we applauding that and dialoguing about it? And yes, there are some shameful periods of history that none of us would wish to repeat or would want -- but let's learn from those and, and give our children an opportunity to understand what was, so that it's not repeated.
Jason:
Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the threads that I would pull up from what you were saying there, which I think is really important, is not making an assumption that what you would hear say in a headline or in a small phrase, is actually what's happening, right? ‘Cuz there's so much more behind that. And that part of what I hear you lifting up is creating opportunities for those individuals to learn -- like inviting them to un come and understand first before they start leveling accusations, asking hard questions that could be answered through that like basic knowledge building.
Nina:
Definitely. And I also say for the education community, we have to do our due diligence; we need to make sure all our checks and balances are in place. You know, we recently had a misstep with one of our districts here in Orange County particularly ethnic studies, and there were some really valid concerns that were raised with incorrect information. And, you know, the district is going back and correcting those things, but they didn't properly vet the information through the levels that they should have. And so there was some mistakes made. So all I'm saying is when we make those mistakes, let's own them, and then let’s move on and let's make sure that, you know, again, in our transparency and in our work, that we are doing our due diligence to make sure that we're doing the checks and balances. And I think for the most part, everybody would say that’s what their intention is. But we’ve gotta make sure that we have the systems in place to ensure that those things are happening. That’s what our families expect and that’s what they deserve.
Music Interlude.
Jason:
So, I want to shift gears a minute here and set a little foundation for the rest of our conversation, Nina. When you think about education, particularly educational equity, how do you, your team, Orange County -- how do you define that?
Nina Boyd:
Good question. I think when we talk about educational equity, we always talk about it through the lens of ensuring opportunities and access are available to all. And when we say to all, we are talking [about] our students and families first and foremost, but we also talk about our employee base, both are classified and are certificated, ensuring that they have opportunities and access to the resources that they need to be the best that they can be. And that in turn will roll into ensuring that our students and families have the best that they deserve. But equity is one of those things that, you know, when you look it up in the dictionary and so forth, it talks about fairness and impartiality and so forth. But in our work, I think it, it's really hard because, um, we're looking at systems that have been around for a long time and, and sometimes there are policies in place that prevent people from doing some of the things that they need to do. And so systemically there are things that we have to look at that might be barriers in some of the equity work that is trying to be accomplished.
Jason:
Yeah, I mean, I appreciate this point that this application of equity, particularly in public education systems is so exceedingly difficult, particularly in the context of our history. Public education institutions have been around for hundreds of years, and we are notorious for adopting policies that we [then] don't find out ways in which to interrogate those systems relative to those that we're serving. And I think that's a fabulous point that you make there.
Nina:
I think the other thing too, just while we're on this: Some of the systems that are created in terms of how we tell our stories -- I think that we can't always show the great work that is being done in districts and at school sites because of the way that it has to be reported. And so the reporting of equity work -- you're doing a one size fits all in terms of percentages and what's being done and so forth -- and trying to break that down in terms of the number of students served and dollars spent and so forth. And I think that this is another example of where our systems that we're required to follow doesn't tell the story to the very people who are asking the questions, which are the families. And so, you know, when you have people going to the State Board of Education or coming into local school boards and demanding to understand more, I mean, our LCAP, yes, you get great engagement in terms of conversation and so forth, but when you look at the reports, it doesn't drill down into the information that people can readily understand.
Jason:
Yeah, I’m curious, I mean, we obviously, the state, we've invested now billions of additional dollars in public education. We have a state funding formula that is directing those resources more equitably to districts. And I'm curious to get a sense from you on this like definitional topic of thinking about resource equity. Do you feel like we're doing a better job? Do you feel like Orange County's doing a better job of getting dollars and resources that turn into opportunities and access for students into the right places, like into the right communities, into the right schools?
Nina:
I think we try. But I know there are still pockets that are being underserved – and so, how do we draw [attention] those? Because, you know, people think Orange County is a rich, high-dollar value in terms of compensation county. But we have pockets of poverty throughout our county, and there's not just one area. There are pockets all across Orange County and even in our richest communities, you will see some of our schools where families are doubled up in apartments, that they do not have housing for single families and those students that are going to school, or we have our motel families. And I know that they have them across the state, but I think people discount that we have that in Orange County.
Jason:
So it's, in some ways it's like, again, here we are where people have a conception of what is happening in Orange County. They make some presumptions about the population that's there, their socioeconomic status, their living circumstances. And that is in part not true at all – that there are populations that actually have great needs in terms of needing to get access and opportunity equally to their peers.
Nina:
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
One of the other things that the state has been working towards is putting a lot of different, you know, different programs on the table for school districts to take advantage of. I think the keystone of that has been the LCFF in the reform of the state funding formula. And subsequent to that there's been ELOP and early education expansion and community schools and a variety of others. How do you think we’re doing when it comes to the implementation of those state initiatives and whether you feel like it's moving the needle on advancing educational equity in our system?
Nina:
I think it is moving the needle -- the needle's moving slowly, but it definitely is moving and I think it's moving in the right direction. I do believe that the fact that there has been more intentionality with regards to those resources has benefited students and families and across our state. And I think that's a great thing, and the state should be applauded for that. And I do think that our district personnel in terms of trying to reimagine education in ways that they can reach the most vulnerable populations, I think they're doing some incredible work. I hear and see a lot of great things happening, and I just wish we could, that we had more ability to share that so that people aren't thinking that they're on an island by themselves trying to reimagine what needs to be done,
Music Interlude.
Jason:
So Nina, the pandemic really made indicators of student success and well-being, like behavioral health for example, more relevant to us in education – because the pandemic just kind of hit us as a society across the head in terms of the challenges that youth were having – challenges that most certainly were there before, but it just came in such a wave that it was like almost impossible to ignore. But it's not that there weren't other sectors like behavioral health that the counties provided, or other places that weren't already concerned with those areas. And I'm just curious to think about these other broader areas or indicators and how you think about the role that a county office or a school district or charter school has in some ways, like, do you feel like there's a responsibility education has to effectively network a lot of those additional supports for children, youth, and their families and communities? Talk me through how you're thinking about that because obviously education can do some things to help create opportunity and access, but it’s certainly not the panacea, right, in terms of supporting children and youth?
Nina:
No, and you're absolutely correct. But then that really comes down to relationships and collaboration. And I do believe that that is one of the things that I think county offices do really, really well in terms of building relationships and collaborating with others to identify what pieces we do – carving out the pie, so to speak – and having really healthy discussions around, you know, challenges, opportunities, benefits and resources. We in this county have closely collaborated and worked with our healthcare agency, looking at not just us trying to identify indicators, but across the spectrum -- our children's hospital is at the table, the healthcare agencies are at the table, nonprofits are at the table – because we were really trying to look at the wraparound services that need to be provided as resources, whether some we can do, and others that we can make available through information and links on our website, parent communications that we're sending home, and, you know, town halls, parent meetings – there’s a variety of ways to do that. But definitely sitting at the table on a regular basis to talk about what we're looking at currently, what we're seeing in our schools, what they're seeing out in the community, what they're seeing coming into the hospitals, our suicide rate, our drug usage spikes; our working with our sheriff's department, our probation -- you know, understanding, the ebb and flow of how kids are acting out and what root causes might be there. I think sometimes we try to do everything and, you know, to a fault because we care.
Jason:
Yeah.
Nina:
But I do think it's important that we stop and really look at what do we do well? What is our priority? What are our goals? What are the things that we should be doing? And focus on those things. And then what else might need to be done? And then who can do those things as opposed to trying to take it all in, because I think as educators, oftentimes, you know, we’ll [think] well, we need to provide this because nobody's doing it, you know…
Jason:
I’ve heard that a lot…
Nina:
Yes. Let's figure out who can do it and let's have an ask, you know: Is this something that you would be willing to do? Or can we partner with you to try to make this happen? And then you carry it forward. But we're at the table working with them, assisting them, but we don't have to then have that become something that we're responsible for long term because we can't sustain it long term.
Jason:
Yeah, yeah. It's, I feel like I've used this term a lot in the recent past, which is, you know, the sum is greater than its parts, right?
Music Interlude.
Jason:
A theme that has come up a lot throughout our podcast is around the role of Chief Business Officials – and in particular an observation that the role of CBOs is changing and evolving. And, Nina, I’m wondering, how are you seeing that?
Nina Boyd:
I would agree with that. You know, the days of the CBO, uh, we used to call them the bean counters and the numbers people. And you were just relying on them for that information. Those [days] are long gone. The CBO of today is really someone who's bringing people together to collaborate, a great communicator both orally and in written format. The CBO of today has to be able to engage people and try to build momentum around different opportunities, issues, challenges. They also are trying to diffuse situations that are occurring. But I just see that the CBO of today has, you know, it's changed in terms of expectations. As a leader, they're really relying on great talent that reports to them to do the technical things, and [then] they really have to have some phenomenal soft skills to be able to manage all the different facets of the work that is now required of a CBO.
Jason:
Yeah – and this intersection between the fundamental roles and responsibilities that CBOs have and, you know, understanding what works and how to direct resources to ensure that they are being maximized – this seems like such a great opportunity for us to continue to grow in the field, and I'm curious: Do you have any additional thoughts about how we might kind of live our way into this responsibility even more?
Nina:
You know, I don't have any great wisdom in that area (laughter), but I do think that flexibility is key, and just, uh, creativity – being able to reimagine things and to bring people to together to allow that creativity to energize, so that there could be some new ideas and maybe new ways of thinking about how we get to whatever outcomes have been identified. And you're only gonna get that by bringing in a lot of different brain power and brain trust and so forth.
When I was president of CASBO in 2018 and I talked about diversity and equity and inclusion, one of the things that I kept pointing out was we need to ensure that we're bringing people to the table that have a diversity of thought -- that we're not bringing the same individuals that we're comfortable with to sit around the table and brainstorm and come up with ideas and solutions – that we need to be allowing more opportunities for people who maybe we didn't think to invite and include. And maybe we're opening the door and inviting whoever wants to come in to sit around the table and dialogue. And then from there, you can narrow the scope to some key individuals from that group. But at least in the inclusion of bringing other minds and interest groups together, you're getting an opportunity to see things that maybe you didn't see before. Oftentimes we handpick individuals because we've seen some work that they've done, but then we've discounted others because we haven't. But it's not to say that they might not have a great idea or some things that they want to share; they just don't know how to share them. And so I do think that our CBOs today have to be encouraging and building teams and including individuals who might not have been included previously in conversations.
Jason:
Yeah, and you and I have talked about diversifying the school business profession, right? What is some of the work that you've been doing in this area for school business officials? We certainly want to be reflective of the students [for] which we serve in these systems. What do you think are efforts that are making a difference to kind of move the needle on that front?
Nina:
Well, one of the things that I've been doing is trying to work with some groups to share what is the business office to people [who] don't know the business side of education. And just as I said, I kind of fell into it. Most people, they either knew someone in it or they fell into it. It wasn't something that -- because in college, when you're going to school, no one's talking about, Oh, I wanna be a CBO of an education institution, or I wanna be a business director in an education institution because that's not anything that we know of, right? So I think that there's some opportunities that, you know, going out and speaking to college students – we started talking to high school students and through going out to our schools and dialoguing about what the business office does, what are the many facets of education and careers in education. But I do think that we could do more, and especially knowing that we are going to have a shortfall of leaders in this industry that we've gotta be doing some capacity building.
I was working with CAAASA, the California Association of African American Superintendents and Administrators the last several years, and we invited CASBO and School Services of California and FCMAT to the table to dialogue about the fact that we need to have some intentionality about recruitment of minorities into leadership roles in this field. And the intentionality being that just as I facilitate with the business executive leadership program as you do, the fact that we have not had any intentionality in terms of reaching out to the Asian-American community or the Latino community or the African-American community to say, you know, there's some great opportunities here and we want our students to see people being successful in these fields so that they know it's something that's obtainable. We've done a, a great job, I think, in terms of the reach out of recruitment for teachers -- and I'm not saying we've done a great job of the recruitment, I'm just saying the outreach...
Jason:
Yeah, yeah.
Nina:
And having that connection with universities and colleges, well, why aren't we doing that on the business side of the house to share, you know, that this is a great field. I love the work that I've done over the 40 years that I've been in this business and met some incredible people, some brilliant minds that have really helped me grow personally, but also helped me to have a different perspective over time. And I think we could definitely do a better job, and, and that would be one area of what I'm currently doing, but also what I think we need to do as an industry.
Jason:
Yeah. I mean, some really meaningful steps in there, Nina. I appreciate you sharing that with us.
Theme music begins.
Jason:
That’s Nina Boyd, Deputy Superintendent for Operations, Government and Community Partnerships for the Orange County Department of Education, former CASBO President – and someone I have the pleasure to teach and learn alongside of through the CASBO Business Executive Program. I hope you’ve enjoyed Nina’s insight and perspectives during this episode.
Budgeting for Educational Equity is a partnership between WestEd and CASBO. Paul Richman writes and produces the episodes along with me; Alyssa Perez at WestEd provides research and develops our companion briefs; Tommy Dunbar handles our music, sound and editing. This series is also made possible by the generous support of the Sobrato Family Foundation.
I’m Jason Willis – thanks for joining us -- and we’ll see you out there.